Curse

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

I wonder, though, how comes the pvp-pve relationship in other games works, but not in GW?

The first thing I would say is that the pve-pvp relationship in GW does work, it works just fine. From the crying of people on forums, you'd think this was not the case, but PvE is not and has never been broken by skill balances.

Second, I'd say that balance in a lot of other games isn't as complicated given that each character is balanced, rather than each possible team combination. Look at, for example, Diablo 2 - every character is balanced because every character is incredibly broken at the pinnacle of its power.

Quote:

PvE players barely get anything out of PvP.

This is because GW isn't designed for a pure PvE community. It's not a PvE game and a PvP game, it's just Guild Wars, and just about every player that plays PvP is playing PvE at the same time. In Guild Wars, the goal of PvE is not to gather huge amounts of gold and rare skins, it's to teach you about the game and gather common, max gear so that you can move on into PvP or smash the elite areas - and hence PvP isn't going to help with the farmer-grinder-hoarder reward mentality.

GW isn't a material game so much as a platform for competitive play, so looking for material rewards is going to get you nowhere. The reward for PvPing is you get to roll faces, get better at the game, and compete.

Kashrlyyk · Apr 20, 2008, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Sure. The vast majority of game content is level 20, endgame PvE areas. These are the kind of thing that would be made of balanced enemy groups. The lower-level areas would, ideally, act as a sort of preparation stage for that - groups that are less varied, or have less effective setups, and so on, so as not to make the learning curve too steep.

Although you seem to take from my post that players would have to build against foes constantly in order to be effective, but this isn't really what I meant. If the skills were balanced appropriately, a single balanced build setup would be able to win the game because it would be able to deal with everything. You wouldn't need to spec specifically against a type of enemy because no area would have a specific type of enemy - so a GvG-esque balanced build would be able to proceed through everything. You might have to use different tactics (target prioritization and such), and while speccing against an area specifically might make you more effective, changing your build constantly wouldn't be definitely necessary.

This would encourage solid build design and open far more avenues for successful build variation in PvE, while at the same time making a more cohesive game overall between PvE and PvP.

I agree! Sadly PvE always comes as an afterthought, so it is no wonder, ANet didn´t do that, even when creating HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

It could have worked, what stood in the way were people that cannot adapt to change, nothing more.

Stop trolling and read what Avarre said!

Cacheelma · Apr 20, 2008, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

I think threads like these are rather pointless as there's no real way to tell what Anet's true intentions of the game are, because (and some people really fail to understand this) Anet is not one single entity. It's not of one mind, or one consciousness.

Then it should be. Are you suggesting that Anet doesn't have a direction for GW to go because there're many developers in the company with many opinions? Seriously?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

I'll bet if you walked up to a group of GW developers, their opinions and reasoning’s would be just as varied as the player's posts here. Some developers may love PvE because it allows them to express their artistic abilities through creative stories and graphics, while another developer may enjoy PvP because it challenges him to attempt to mold and balance a highly competitive and delicate skill meta. And since each of these are their jobs and their hobbies in GW, they're obviously going to biased to thinking higher of them than other aspects.

This is true but it doesn't mean anything. A PvE-loving developer shouldn't be able to do something he wants to do if it's not go well with the concept and direction, or the so-called "vision", of the game. Same goes for PvP-biased developer. It's when the so-called "vision" keeps getting changed around over and over that the game fails.

It's true that after 3 years, we still don't get the clear sense as to where the game is headed. But that's because Anet keeps changing around the vision of the game. First they want the game to be cooperative, and PvP is the end-game while PvE basically "train" you to play PvP (look at the desert missions). People can play the game for a while and then leave and come back when the next chapter arrives. Then they want PvE players to keep playing PvE by introducing grind titles, and that you don't even have to bother with PvE AT ALL if you want to PvP. Then they also want people to be able to play alone by introducing Heroes, but then they still expect people to play cooperatively by making sure that Hero's AI is somewhat bad AND not allowing the use of heroes to fill up your team. THEN they want PvE players to keep playing PvE even more by giving grind rewards & advantages. THEN they make sure PvP game gives PvP-only players some decent rewards they could only get from PvE. Who knows what's next?

shru · Apr 20, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Then it should be. Are you suggesting that Anet doesn't have a direction for GW to go because there're many developers in the company with many opinions? Seriously?

This is true but it doesn't mean anything. A PvE-loving developer shouldn't be able to do something he wants to do if it's not go well with the concept and direction, or the so-called "vision", of the game. Same goes for PvP-biased developer. It's when the so-called "vision" keeps getting changed around over and over that the game fails.

It's true that after 3 years, we still don't get the clear sense as to where the game is headed. But that's because Anet keeps changing around the vision of the game. First they want the game to be cooperative, and PvP is the end-game while PvE basically "train" you to play PvP (look at the desert missions). Then they also want PvE players to keep playing PvE by introducing grind titles, and that you don't even have to bother with PvE AT ALL if you want to PvP. Then they also want people to be able to play alone by introducing Heroes, but then they still expect people to play cooperatively by making sure that Hero's AI is somewhat bad AND not allowing the use of heroes to fill up your team. THEN they want PvE players to keep playing PvE even more by giving grind rewards & advantages. THEN they make sure PvP game gives PvP-only players some decent rewards they could only get from PvE. Who knows what's next?

Why do you think a vision has to be so narrow minded as to include PvP or PvE in its greater intentions and not both? They're obviously trying to cater to the needs of both sides, so why should someone be able to say which side is getting better treatment?

Cacheelma · Apr 20, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Maybe because they're doing a VERY BAD job at catering both sides?

Productivity · Apr 20, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

PVE Balance is a completely irrelevant topic, regardless of Ursan Blessing. There has been nothing in the history of skill changes that has made significantly harder. PVE difficulty is derived from three (retarded) concepts that Arena Net seems to love. Pushing normal skill numbers up to stupidly high levels (see bosses that can hit for 450 damage a spell), making mobs stupidly large or giving the mobs skills that are so far beyond the power curve as to be completely broken (EoTN is the worst offender in this, see for instance Soulrending Shriek, Mandragor's Charge, Trample etc.).

None of these difficulty mechanisms have anything to do with, or are noticably influenced by skill balance changes. As such, PVE should never be allowed to prevent necessary PVP rebalances from happening. The fact that Arena Net seems to be going there indicates that they have a dire misunderstanding of there own game and of the principles of good game design (although Ursan blessing and the afore mentioned difficulty mechanisms allready show this).

Shuuda · Apr 20, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Stop trolling and read what Avarre said!

Tsk tsk tsk, I was merely describing the average forum poster on Riverside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Person with a brain

In Guild Wars, the goal of PvE is not to gather huge amounts of gold and rare skins, it's to teach you about the game and gather common, max gear so that you can move on into PvP or smash the elite areas

It would seem that GW has been heavily derailed from that vision. Shamefully. Judging by the builds of most Joe Wammos, they didn't do enough to teach them.

Quote:

PVE Balance is a completely irrelevant topic, regardless of Ursan Blessing. There has been nothing in the history of skill changes that has made significantly harder

True, but if a farming build gets nerfed, they will drown the forum with crying.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 20, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Stop trolling and read what Avarre said!

Meh, i wish all trolls were like him. Atleast he's right.

Crom The Pale · Apr 20, 2008, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The first thing I would say is that the pve-pvp relationship in GW does work, it works just fine. From the crying of people on forums, you'd think this was not the case, but PvE is not and has never been broken by skill balances.

Second, I'd say that balance in a lot of other games isn't as complicated given that each character is balanced, rather than each possible team combination. Look at, for example, Diablo 2 - every character is balanced because every character is incredibly broken at the pinnacle of its power.

This is because GW isn't designed for a pure PvE community. It's not a PvE game and a PvP game, it's just Guild Wars, and just about every player that plays PvP is playing PvE at the same time. In Guild Wars, the goal of PvE is not to gather huge amounts of gold and rare skins, it's to teach you about the game and gather common, max gear so that you can move on into PvP or smash the elite areas - and hence PvP isn't going to help with the farmer-grinder-hoarder reward mentality.

GW isn't a material game so much as a platform for competitive play, so looking for material rewards is going to get you nowhere. The reward for PvPing is you get to roll faces, get better at the game, and compete.

Your making a massive assumption that how YOU play this game is how it is meant to be played. This game, like most all other games, is what the players make it to be.

You say that PvE isn't about gathering gold or rare skins, yet they exist and are sought after by many players.

Many people that play PvE never have any intention of moving to PvP, the game may have originally been designed for that but that is NOT what players have done for the most part.

GW is a material game if that is how the player wishes to play it.

You are correct in that skill changes do no "break" PvE, but then the lack of them will not "break" PvP either. You would just be forced to run the "broken" build that you wish to be nerfed like everyone else.

Ive said this a few times but I'll say it again.

PvE is about Stability, knowing what your going to face and planing for it.

PvP is about diversity, not knowing whats coming and planing for any eventuallity.

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

You are correct in that skill changes do no "break" PvE, but then the lack of them will not "break" PvP either. You would just be forced to run the "broken" build that you wish to be nerfed like everyone else.

You have just defined broken PvP. Therefore, you have no real point.

There are cases where not rebalancing PvP works. This, however, is not one of them.

MithranArkanere · Apr 20, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

There is no such thing called 'balance' in PvE.

Players have PvE skills, that are 'overpowered'.
Monsters have Monster skills, that are even more overpowered.

And Players do not compete with other Players, since in PvE they are all in the same side (yeah, even in Factions).

If they nerf a PvP skill you needed in PvE you can always make a beter build using PvE skills, unless we are talking about farming builds, that doesn't really matter since they are not part of the equation, but a side effect of some mechanics of the game.

DDL · Apr 20, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

If they nerf a PvP skill you needed in PvE you can always make a beter build using PvE skills, unless we are talking about farming builds

Or people who don't have factions/NF/GWEN? Or people who do, but don't have enough rank to get the skills?

But you know, other than all those people, right?

Plus, that's a dumb argument anyway. "OH NOES, ANCESTORS IS NERFED. IS K THO: I CAN USE SUMMON SPIRITS"

pfaile · Apr 20, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Keep in mind that GW is really just a testing ground at this point for GW2.

Even Anet must have realized that thier method of merging PvP and PvE just doesn't work so they are trying new ideas here that will help them impliment a much better system in GW2, or so I dearly hope

Agree with you 100%

Productivity · Apr 20, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

You would just be forced to run the "broken" build that you wish to be nerfed like everyone else.

When this happens, people stop playing. GW PVP dies effectively.

Ctb · Apr 20, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Maybe because they did a very bad job designing the fundamentals of the game?

FTFY.

Guild Wars was always meant to be a PvP game, and anybody who remembers the original design philosophy behind Prophecies knows that. All of the problems with PvP versus PvE started on a bunch of whiteboards and flow charts long before a single line of code was written.

The PvE portion of the game was meant to be the lead-up to the end game content, which was HA and GvG. Even the name betrays the original intent: "Guild Wars". It's not "You versus the Charr and then the White Mantle and then some dead guys in the desert and then the dwarves and then the Titans". It's "Guild Wars".

Then they realized that only a few people are willing to tolerate the absurdly childish nature inherent to competetive online PvP in ANY game, much less something that's supposedly an RPG derivative which is traditionally about COOPERATION, so they tried to FORCE players into PvP with Factions, then gave up with Nightfall, then made a completely half-assed attempt at actually creating a PVE game with GWEN.

The only reason the arguments have ramped up so heavily since Nightfall is because when it was only Prophecies the two systems could appear to be relatively separate. Only now and then did changes to PvP have a major impact on PvE, but now there are so many class combinations and skill interactions that even a minor PvP tweak can have significant repurcussions to completely unrelated PvE builds.

They screwed the pooch right from the start with this. They expected that people would just naturally glide right into PVP, but there's a huge group of folks - myself included - who just don't like the entire nature of competetive online gaming whether it's people "teabagging" you in Halo or D&D wannabes typing IN ALL CAPS THAT YOU SUCK PVX NUB in an MMO.

They tried to force people to play a certain way, and that was doomed to fail from the start. Arguments like this can pop up till the cows come home, but there's nothing ANET can reasonably be expected to do because the fundamental design of the game is entirely flawed.

The only reason PvP is dying is that it's entirely inaccessible to anybody who's not willing to devote ridiculous amounts of time to it, so there's no compelling reason for casual players to do anything but RA or AB. It has nothing to do with this latest change's commentary, or anything similar. The PVP in this game is a disaster and it was always doomed to be a disaster because they've bet the farm that they could force people to do it, and they bet wrong.

You can't see me · Apr 20, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

FTFY.

Guild Wars was always meant to be a PvP game, and anybody who remembers the original design philosophy behind Prophecies knows that. All of the problems with PvP versus PvE started on a bunch of whiteboards and flow charts long before a single line of code was written.

The PvE portion of the game was meant to be the lead-up to the end game content, which was HA and GvG. Even the name betrays the original intent: "Guild Wars". It's not "You versus the Charr and then the White Mantle and then some dead guys in the desert and then the dwarves and then the Titans". It's "Guild Wars".

Then they realized that only a few people are willing to tolerate the absurdly childish nature inherent to competetive online PvP in ANY game, much less something that's supposedly an RPG derivative which is traditionally about COOPERATION, so they tried to FORCE players into PvP with Factions, then gave up with Nightfall, then made a completely half-assed attempt at actually creating a PVE game with GWEN.

The only reason the arguments have ramped up so heavily since Nightfall is because when it was only Prophecies the two systems could appear to be relatively separate. Only now and then did changes to PvP have a major impact on PvE, but now there are so many class combinations and skill interactions that even a minor PvP tweak can have significant repurcussions to completely unrelated PvE builds.

They screwed the pooch right from the start with this. They expected that people would just naturally glide right into PVP, but there's a huge group of folks - myself included - who just don't like the entire nature of competetive online gaming whether it's people "teabagging" you in Halo or D&D wannabes typing IN ALL CAPS THAT YOU SUCK PVX NUB in an MMO.

They tried to force people to play a certain way, and that was doomed to fail from the start. Arguments like this can pop up till the cows come home, but there's nothing ANET can reasonably be expected to do because the fundamental design of the game is entirely flawed.

The only reason PvP is dying is that it's entirely inaccessible to anybody who's not willing to devote ridiculous amounts of time to it, so there's no compelling reason for casual players to do anything but RA or AB. It has nothing to do with this latest change's commentary, or anything similar. The PVP in this game is a disaster and it was always doomed to be a disaster because they've bet the farm that they could force people to do it, and they bet wrong.

I'd post in this thread stating my personal opinion, but the post of the year on this topic has done that for me.

Magikarp · Apr 20, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

When this happens, people stop playing. GW PVP dies effectively.

When this happened, people stoped playing. GW PVP died effectively. PvE isn't far behind.

fix'd. sweet dreams Guild Wars Guru....

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

They tried to force people to play a certain way, and that was doomed to fail from the start. Arguments like this can pop up till the cows come home, but there's nothing ANET can reasonably be expected to do because the fundamental design of the game is entirely flawed.

What I'm getting from your post is something like this;

1: ANet designs a game where PvE leads into PvP.

2: Lots of people buy the game.

3: Players play the game as ANet intended, PvE and PvP.

4: Other players refuse to play PvP due to whatever reason. The game has to change its fundamental design to accommodate these players while shafting the players who saw and were attracted to the original game design.

It's not a case of ANet forcing players to play a certain way as much as the players trying to force ANet to redesign the game to suit them. Support for PvP has decreased while PvE focus and support increases. The game has shifted from more casual PvE to a game where grind is rewarded. Rather than find a game that suits what they want, players who don't fit into the game are trying to force the game to change to their whims.

And ANet is obeying, because they have to make money.

The irony of it all is that the more PvE and PvP separate, with special skills for PvE, and more focus on farming and grinding, the more PvP rebalances hit PvE. If the two games were more parallel (Prophecies, for instance), then balance in one would be balance in the other, to a degree. The less the design of PvE tries to follow actual balance, the more it gets screwed up by being half-nailed to the balance changes of PvP. If PvE did not have any special conditional items, mechanics, or skills (monster skills included), then balancing would be a lot less potentially disruptive - not because the changes wouldn't make a difference (they would have an effect), but because the changes would have an easily tracked effect in both parts of the game, and the criteria for balance would be somewhat similar.

Granted, there would still probably be complaints from players too short-sighted to see that PvP balance changes don't make a dent in PvE gameplay.

Ctb · Apr 20, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

he game has to change its fundamental design to accommodate these players while shafting the players who saw and were attracted to the original game design.

No, that's exactly the opposite of the point. ANET can't change the basic design of the game at this point. It's not feasible, so these arguments are just going to keep popping up until the game goes offline.

They can keep on doing things like this last update "oh we'll just revert it", but it's not going to help because they're trying to manage a game that doesn't exist.

Quote:

It's not a case of ANet forcing players to play a certain way

DO you remember back when the big selling point of this game (aside from the no monthly fee) was that you could play it "your way"? ANET never meant that, and they eventually dropped that claim. The game was built as a PvP game with a very long tutorial, simple as that. The entire purpose was to funnel people through PvE unlocking things for use in PvP. That was the entire POINT of the unlock mechanic. It did nothing else AT ALL, because back then skill trainers only sold a certain set of skills - not those skills plus whatever you had already unlocked - up until Dakk, who had all the non-elites. The game was so PvP-centric back then that there was even a thriving market for salvaged, unidentified runes solely because of the unlock mechanic.

They wanted people to play PvP at the end. It was specifically designed that way. But people don't want that. People want PvE and casual PvP, and a handful of people want UT-style laddered ultra-competetive PvP.

Point being: that's how they designed the game, and the players that bought the game didn't want to play that way from EITHER side. Most hardcore PvPers didn't want to play PvE at all, and most PvErs didn't want to play competetive PvP. The game was built to accomodate people who wanted to play PvE and then spend the rest of the time after that doing GvG and HA, but there aren't many players like that. As a result, ANET is just never going ot make the other two groups of players happy because each group is always going to feel like their toes are being stepped on when the other group's demands are met.

They designed the game for a group of people that barely exists. They can't fix this problem now, it's 4 years too late.

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

DO you remember back when the big selling point of this game (aside from the no monthly fee) was that you could play it "your way"?

Actually, I remember being attracted to the game because it offered competitive play with skill valued over time. At no point did I expect a game with carebear PvE, or a game that gave benefits from grinding.

Quote:

Most hardcore PvPers didn't want to play PvE at al

Most hardcore PvPers ended up there after starting as hardcore PvEers. This was especially necessary when PvE characters were a requirement in PvP due to equipment and weapon sets.